Wednesday, September 14, 2005

Give the Guy a Chance!

I write this in light of the extraordinary number of relationships related posts I have recently seen. I figure that I can take a moment away from theological posts (don't worry, it'll be in here) and write upon things from the perspective of the great hordes of single men out there--hopefully soli deo gloria. So women, this post is for you.

If a guy asks you out on a date (probably to get coffee, of which you may have had more coffee in this past week with guys you don't really know than you would ever want), consider that a great honor. This man is willing to sacrifice of his time (at least a few hours) to get to know YOU better. He could have done a number of other things with his time, including, 1) homework, 2)work and earn some money, 3)hang out with his guy friends, 4)exercise, 5)go buy himself a new rifle. But he is willing to go out and most likely spend money on you.

Most likely when he asks his speech is not going to be eloquent--rather, he may sound like Porky Pig studdering over every other word that proceeds from his mouth. Don't hold that against him; that is merely anxiety over the enormous task of what can seem like walking into a lion's den with nothing more than a leotard between him and the lion (it sometimes seems to men, usually fallaciously, that women are just prowling around waiting to bite your head off). If nothing else, understand that if you say 'no' or if the relationship ends up not working out, our boy here is going to be at the least a little crushed--and who knows how long he may have liked you and gotten up the nerve to ask you on one 3 hour date.

I know of guys who are quite afraid to ask women on dates. These are men of whom the world is not worthy--men who love God, bear the fruit of the Spirit, will love their wives more and more everyday until they die... and who aren't that bad looking. Who knows when it could be one of these godly men who is asking you for one date. Men like this are quite rare. I'm going to be frank right now and say that you are probably not worthy of him--after all, you are a sinner who deserves hell, saved by grace alone (though I must make clear that this is a two-sided coin, this man is also a wretched sinner saved by grace, and so he is not worthy of you either--humility is a quality that is needed on both sides here). A man who will treat you like a queen is not what you deserve.

If you have homework/work to do, or whatever else you have to do, then do that and let him know. But don't just make excuses (guys may be slow, but we can still see through excuses). Let him know that you would be willing to do something with him at a later time. And also, most guys are pretty flexible with when you could do stuff together. They'll make time in their schedules for you. So when they ask you when you'd like to do something, don't think that they are being passive, rather, they're probably being kind (a quality worth looking for).

Now, if you really think the guy is that bad and you really dislike him that much, then gently just say 'no,' when you are asked. I'm also not suggesting that you just give anyone a chance. If you are in hearty disagreement with a man over issues you see as important (i.e. theology, life philosophy, etc), then it probably would be better to just say 'no.' Also, I'm not suggesting that you go out with the 'hanger-outer boys', who without a doubt will ask you out--but I'd imagine that they are quite easily identifiable. I'm not suggesting that you go on a date with just anybody who asks you out, but if the man seems nice, genuine, godly (this is addressed primarily to Christian women), respectful, sweet (i.e. opens the doors for you, speaks kindly, asks how your day went), and you don't think he's drop-dead ugly, then give him at least one date--who knows, you may just find the diamond in the rough.

12 Comments:

At 1:56 PM, Blogger Donna S. said...

This was an enlightening post, Lenny. It is very respectable of a guy to want to get to know a girl better one-on-one, and from a girl's perspective there is nothing more flattering than a respectable guy offering to sacrifice his time/money to do this. We really do appreciate this, though we can be equally awkward and clumsy in responding to your offers.

I do want to express something that several of my close friends (guys and girls) and I have discussed at length since arriving at seminary. Sometimes it is not as easy as just accepting an offer to go on a date with a guy, especially when you hardly know them at all. You don't know what you really think about this person or how you feel about them, and something about committing to a lengthy one on one date can be intimidating at first. Also, if you get to know someone initially in the context of potential romance, what do you do if you quickly realize that it won't go anywhere? You would like to continue to befriend them, but now you have to say the words all men are taught to fear, "I think we should just be friends," which (in all reality) is not likely to happen.

My friends and I tend to agree that it seems better to first seek an opportunity to get to know someone new in a group of friends. This offers good accountability, as well as an opportunity to observe that person in different contexts and not just when they may be trying to impress you. After that, a guy could express an interest in spending individual time with a girl - at least they will have something to talk about.

That's my two cents - I don't profess to be the professional on this subject by any means. In fact, if I am way off I would like to know. I just hope it offers some insight on why some girls hesitate... if they do, try the group thing. It may take more coordination, but it may prove to be worthwhile.

 
At 3:18 PM, Blogger ckjolly said...

Cheers! Donna. Thanks for speaking up for us. Often it's so difficult to explain in words why we react as we do. I'm in total agreement. Women appreciate a man who is interested in her, who she is, what constructs her personality.

The guy who has only seen her and then asks her to coffee (knowing nothing about her), even if he IS godly ... well, is it hard to understand why she would hestitate to take him up on the offer? Why should she enter into a romance (i realize that it's JUST coffee) with someone who she knows nothing about and he only thinks that she's "cute". But the guy who takes the time and effort to meet her on her level. Meet her friends, spend time with her friends (even if she's not around), and pursue a casual, friendly, honest relationship ... well, he's scoring points with her already.

This allows her to sit back and assess who this guy really is ... she watches him ... she sees how he interacts with her friends ... and in her time she's ready and willing to give him a chance. It then becomes a natural transition to doing things together. one on one.

Their friendship develops deeper, beginning to understand the inner workings of each personality. Then they may come to the realization that this other person is his/her match ... if not, they can still be friends.

Perhaps this is idealistic ... but you have no idea how many girls I know dream of a situation like the one I just described.

Sure the sacrifice of an hour or two of your time ought to be valued ... but if you're going for gold ... it takes more than an hour or two and 10 bucks.

 
At 4:15 PM, Blogger Jeremy Perrine said...

This is a comment I made on Christine's site:http:
www.christinehnat.blogspot.com/

Take it from a fellow serious, sensitive guy when I say that I find it ridiculus that you think this actually makes it difficult for guys.
The only group that makes it difficult for guys to ask out girls is guys.
Lines don't work, serious, legitamite conversations do. Being upfront and simply asking them out to do something. Giving them the option to decline without worrying about feelings being hurt. Treating them with enough respect by not thinking "how can I direct the conversation towards asking her out."
We men need to stop thinking and seeing the numerous Godly women on campus as possible wives and start treating them as sisters in Christ. Men on campus treat women on as notches on their belt, as soon as one declines they're off to the next possibility, then they use the excuse that they're just trying to find a wife or complain that the women are playing games or to harsh.

Now I am not casually placing all of this onto all guys, but I hope it gives you something to think about.

 
At 4:17 PM, Blogger J. C. Ashby said...

AMEN! Lenny - thank you so much for honestly voicing your perspective on this issue. I think it's one we're all to often aware of, but no one really talks about (at least not to our opposite sex counterparts). You're right - we as sisters in Christ need to be sensitive and honest concering this issue, and offer men kind, yet direct answers (and never open up the opportunity to "toy" with emotions). It IS important that we seek to guard each others' hearts in this manner.

And ladies (Don and Christine): RIGHT ON! Women (at least, speaking personally) are quite flattered when pursued intentionally and considerately, and the gentleman demonstrates persistent, yet patient interest. However (and I can't remember who gave this illustration), when someone approaches us as a practical stranger "out of the blue" - as if a dating "free for all" has just commenced, and all single girls are "ripe for the picking" - THAT TURNS US OFF LIKE A TODDLER TO BROCCOLI!

BUT - and I do have to emphasize this - we, as women, DO CONSIDER the situation y'all are in (as men). I can IMAGINE the courage it takes for a guy to be the initiator in these matters, and WE ARE SO GLAD WHEN YOU DO. Way to go against the common grain of our present culture and combat the passivity, you guys! You have our TOTAL respect for that... HEY! Maybe we should buy YOU a coffee... :)

 
At 7:26 PM, Blogger Lenny said...

Get ready, this one's long!

I appreciate everybody’s comments here, and I hope that my post has not been misunderstood. I am not saying that there is only one way for relationships to work. Things can develop fast or slow, as friends or by mutual romantic interest.

I am saying, however, that women need to step out of their comfort zones as well. Men go to great extremes to ask a woman out, in most cases. I am not saying that the first ‘date’ has to be the immediate start of a romantic relationship. Rather, the initial date is just a time to start a relationship—to get to know interests, life goals, etc. This can be the means of establishing a friendship that could lead to more. What I am saying is that women need to be open to this avenue. Men and women both get ideas of how things are supposed to progress in relationships and try to hold on to those ideals with all of their might—specifying times and means on how to date and find a life-partner. This is not good. We should rather be open to how God will bring things about. Women, if God brings a man into the picture by asking you out to coffee though you hardly know each other (maybe through a casual classroom relationship), don’t despise this. And men, if a woman wants to get to know you first as a friend, act in patience. Set paradigms may be the exact opposite of how God is going to work in our lives—act in wisdom, but be open.

For instance, some of the greatest men I know really don’t have the time/opportunity to just get to know a woman as a friend (I’m sure that Nikki Tatom could testify to the fact that if she refused JD’s out of the blue action, she’d be missing out on a great man of God). We live in segregated housing (especially on campus, where we have male and female dorms)—and so little interaction occurs naturally in a homely setting. Some guys at seminary already have pastorates—most of which are small, and so interaction with women that are within their age-range in a church setting are scarce to none. Some of these guys have one or more other jobs. They have class (there aren’t too many women to befriend in the pastoral studies track, for instance) and various other responsibilities. Outside of God’s miraculous providence to bring a woman into such a man’s life in some unforeseeable manner, natural friendship is next to out of the question. My point is that by dismissing one of these men ‘right off the bat’ is that you could be missing out on getting to know a really great guy. I know that I, for instance, have three part time jobs, 15 credit hours in the pastoral studies track, do homework, need to sleep, eat, am a Hebrew of the Hebrews, circumcised on the eighth day, as to zeal, a persecutor of the church (oops, sorry—wrong list)… and so I am not trying to throw myself a pity-party, but finding time to just interact with people outside of roommates and natural life situations (Jennifer and Kristin and I are friends only because they work in the lunchroom and Kristin goes to Clifton, and most of my natural life situations do not include Christian women), is rare at best—though Friday night, out of a quite unnatural situation and divine providence, we were able to hang out for an hour or so with our neighbors, who are kind women.

I agree with Jeremy that we should love our sisters in Christ and that they are first and foremost just that—coparticipants in the grace of God and the kingdom. Thus, as Jennifer stressed, we need to guard one another’s hearts and seek to submit to one another. However, I do not think that most seminary guys, at least those whom I know, make dating to be some sort of game of getting/finding the fitting ‘notches on our belt.’ I think that both men and women need to be ready to accept the “let’s just be friends” line. But I do not think that the Joshua Harris model of “Boy Meets Girl” should be the end all solution. I like the ideal of marrying someone who has been a good friend of mine—but this may not be a viable option. In fact, the great majority of marriage relationships that I know of have not come from a natural friendship (I personally can currently think of only two) but from a simple dating relationship.

Hold on, there’s more…. We also have to remember that this idea of friendshipàdatingàmarriage is quite a recent western concept. From my understanding of how things have been in the past, a man pursued a woman and if she liked him, they got married (and in some cultures there are arranged marriages, and in others the man saw a woman he liked, they got hitched, and they made it work—I’m not necessarily advocating those models, though another topic would be making marriage work, even if it is quite difficult). Honestly, from the stories I’ve heard from my parents, grandparents, etc (including the world’s methods—which we can assess and take and leave what we see to be useful/harmful), a man and a woman met or were matched up by their friends and dated (or people could date a few people at a time and see if any of those turn out). What I’m saying is, don’t look down on a man because he asks you on a date before he knows you very well—perhaps that is his only method of getting to know you/initiating a relationship.

BTW, here is another post on this issue by Leslie Follmar (http://leslie.blogs.com/the_grafting_process/2005/09/controversyoh_g.html#comment-9478248).

 
At 9:29 PM, Blogger Kristin said...

Whoa-- i think we could discuss the different ways to date/not date/court or whatever until the rapture. I agree with Lenny and everyone else (b/c we are all pretty much saying the same thing)- it is different for every couple. Nikki and JD- totally different from many while there are others who did form friendships first. Some date for years and others a few months. I think we should just not analyze everyone elses relationships and do what God calls us to do. :)

 
At 1:04 AM, Blogger Jason Vaughn said...

Lenny,

this is just a quick post to tell you how much love I have for you in Christ. You have an awesome attitude and blog. It is always a high point to read your blog. I plan to repost it on mine in a few days if its cool with you. Also, I might be taking on an interim pastorate soon at a church located on campus so I appreciated prayers as always.

 
At 1:52 AM, Blogger Donna S. said...

Lenny - thanks for your original post and for your clarifying comment. I do respect you and other guys like yourself that seek to honor the Lord in the way you conduct yourself with the opposite sex. And thanks for your honesty -- we don't think less of you for it. You are absolutely right about girls needing to be willing to be risk takers as well... I think many of us fear getting our hearts involved when we don't know the person well (and I think that too a point it's a good thing). It doesn't help when we question the person's motives for asking us out. Maybe we err too much on the side of caution.. maybe I should stop making generalizations about my gender and just say "I" instead. :)

I hope that my original comment wasn't taken the wrong way - but whatever the case, it's out there now and I'm glad that it has helped to stimulate honest discussion. I also realize that I may have blacklisted myself on campus and am now known as the "idealistic female that will laugh at you when you ask her out." Hmm.. if that IS the case, it would explain a lot. :) Anyway, thanks for the post, Lenny. Keep bloggin!

 
At 10:52 PM, Blogger Alex & Laura Beth said...

Lenny, I have to say I've only ventured on to your blog about four or five times ever... And today, I was happy to see that you used to word "hanger-outer." That word brings back some funny memories. Great post, and I totally hear what you're saying. I wasn't 100% infatuated, "crushin'," or interested in Alex when he first asked me on a date - but I gave him a chance because I knew from what others had said that he was a great man, a godly man, a loving person, etc. I quickly realized that I had made a very right decision, as I got to know Alex and realize how strangely perfect he is for me. And now, we're getting married. ...Not that that is a formula for success or anything. Relationships start in a million different ways, and I agree that in general girls should be more open to dates - even with a guy tbey don't know too well. Okay, I'm done.

 
At 4:15 PM, Blogger Lenny said...

I totally agree. For one thing, I don't think that women should just give out their numbers to any guy who they just meet and who asks them on a first date. Wait until you get to know him, at least a little, before you just go giving out your phone number. Also, it would definitely be best to just meet at some location--like a coffee house, a restaraunt, etc. Don't go driving around with strange men. I in no way would endorse these things.

Women on college campuses do have a unique opportunity. There are places on campus that you can easily meet--this will provide a safe, non-committal, non-intimidating environment. If you want to meet off campus, drive separately and to a public locale. And for those who aren't college students, taking along friends and meeting in a group is a good idea. If he is against meeting in a small group, you may want to wisely question his integrity--even if he's an introvert. Exercise wisdom.

 
At 7:22 PM, Blogger Del said...

OK, here is the thing. It is totally different when you are commenting as a single person who hasn't been in a relationship in a while or if you are in a solid relationship. You will have a totally different view on this.

There is no formula. Del, just be content with where God has you.

 
At 1:55 AM, Blogger Jason Ramage said...

and you don't think he's drop-dead ugly

Way to set the bar high on that one!

who knows, you may just find the diamond in the rough.

And isn't that what women are after anyway? :)

 

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